Scam Inc: How a $500B Crime Industry is Impacting the World with Sue-Lin Wong
Fresh out of the studio, Sue-Lin Wong, Southeast Asia Correspondent for The Economist, joins us to uncover the dark world of online scams and how they’ve evolved into a $500 billion global crime industry. She shares her investigative journey behind Scam Inc., her latest podcast series, revealing how cybercriminal syndicates operate like multinational corporations—leveraging AI, crypto, and human trafficking to fuel their scams. Sue-Lin explains why Southeast Asia has become a hub for these illicit operations, the psychological manipulation that makes anyone vulnerable, and the deep-rooted connections between scamming, money laundering, and political corruption. We discuss the Kansas bank collapse, the rise of pig butchering scams, and how law enforcement struggles to keep up with decentralized criminal networks. Closing the conversation, Sue-Lin highlights what individuals, governments, and financial institutions must do to fight back against the next wave of AI-powered fraud.
"We're all vulnerable. And I hadn't thought about that previously. I thought, oh, it's only a small group of people who might fall for this. What I've learned is actually [that] these scammers are so sophisticated. They have so much money. Based on my reporting, this industry, you know, is maybe more lucrative than the illicit drug trade, uh, and these criminal syndicates might be making over 500 billion US dollars a year. So that means they have access to the latest technology, whether it's voice cloning or face changing software. They can buy the latest in AI tools. they can stay several steps ahead of most law enforcement organizations in most places in the world, and, you know, re-invest in their businesses, because that's how they view what they're doing. They just see this as a business line, and they want to make a profit. That's why we called the podcast Scam Inc, because I think the way to understand what we're seeing is that this is an industry and everyone's driven by profits. So the fact that the criminals have so much money makes it really difficult for governments, police or international organizations or banks or crypto exchanges or social media companies to tackle this huge and growing problem." - Sue-Lin Wong
Profile: Sue-Lin Wong, Southeast Asia Correspondent, The Economist (LinkedIn) and the host of "The Prince" and "Scam Inc" podcast series [Subscription Required]. Picture Credits: Scam Inc logo from The Economist.
Here is the edited transcript of our conversation:
Bernard Leong: Welcome to Analyse Asia, the premiere podcast dedicated to dissecting the pulse of business, technology and media in Asia, I am Bernard Leong and you must be frustrated by the inundation of scam emails, phone calls and messages pervading your phone every day. The problem has led to millions of losses globally and yet part of the story happens in Asia. With me today, Wong Sue-Lin, Southeast Asia correspondent from The Economist, to talk about their new podcast series, “Scam-Inc” and its implications in the region which we live in. First of all, I completed the whole series back to back over the last weekend and am a fan of your earlier series, The Prince. Sue-Lin, welcome to the show.
Sue-Lin Wong: Well, thanks so much for having me, Bernard, and it's a delight to know you are a longtime subscriber of The Economist.
Bernard Leong: I want to start off first by getting your origin story. How did you start your career and eventually land your present role with The Economist?
Sue-Lin Wong: I was born and raised in Australia. After high school, I spent a year in China teaching English, and I really fell in love with the country. I decided I wanted to return after university. So I went home, studied Asian Studies and Law at the Australian National University, and in my final year, I applied for a bunch of jobs in Asia, including in China. I was very fortunate to get a job with Reuters through their graduate trainee program.
I spent a year training in Shanghai and then joined the Reuters Beijing Bureau as one of their economics correspondents. From there, I covered a whole range of topics, including China-North Korea relations. I later opened the Reuters Shenzhen Bureau before moving to the Financial Times in China. After my time with the FT, I joined The Economist.
Bernard Leong: From your career journey, what are some interesting lessons you can share with my audience? Given your experience with the Financial Times, Reuters, and now The Economist, I’m sure your time covering China has provided you with some very interesting insights.
Sue-Lin Wong: I’d say listen deeply and try to understand other people rather than coming in with your own preconceived notions. Stay curious. I feel very unqualified to give life advice, so I'll keep it broad and vague.
Bernard Leong: Cool. I want to ask about your earlier show, The Prince, which is how I first got to know your work. The series details the chronology of President Xi Jinping’s rise to power. Since it debuted three years ago, how was the response to the series? What are your reflections on it, and do you have any thoughts on continuing the story now that he has secured his third term?
Sue-Lin Wong: Many good questions. I was struck by how well The Prince was received. When you’re making a long-form podcast, you never really know whether people will listen or find it interesting. As journalists, we just want people to read our articles and listen to our podcasts.
Sue-Lin Wong: It’s been a very pleasant surprise that so many people remain curious about Xi Jinping. I still receive comments three years after the series was made. As for a follow-up, I don’t have any plans. I am now based in Singapore, covering Southeast Asia. I think continuing that story would be a task for someone currently based in China who still covers China.
Bernard Leong: So I'm going to get to the main subject of the day, which is also what you have been covering in Southeast Asia, which is about Scam Inc., the podcast series. What was the initial inspiration for Scam Inc.? How did the collapse of this bank in Kansas serve as the starting point before exploring the global issue?
Sue-Lin Wong: I arrived in Singapore about two years ago to start my new beat covering Southeast Asia. Once I arrived, I realized scams were a huge story in Asia, especially in Southeast Asia. I started covering bits and pieces of the story, and the more I covered it, the more I realized that this is an enormous global issue.
But it really has its roots in Asia. I thought to myself, this would actually make a really, really interesting long-form narrative podcast. Then, I went looking for a way into the story for an audience that perhaps isn't as familiar with the Asian angles, given that The Economist has subscribers all over the world and is very global.
When I read the news that a bank had collapsed in rural Kansas, I thought, wow, there's something here. I needed to investigate it and figure out if it was in any way connected with what I was seeing every day in Southeast Asia while covering my beat, which is a world away from rural Kansas.
Bernard Leong: The series actually covered quite a lot of ground, involving fraud, human trafficking, and money laundering. What are the key takeaways that you hope your listeners will remember after listening to this eight-episode series?
Sue-Lin Wong: There are many things, but I think what we are witnessing is the biggest shift in how transnational crime works in modern history. Gone are the days of familiar hierarchical structures where you had tattooed gangsters and powerful godfathers at the top of some kind of mafia pyramid. Instead, we now see a marketplace that is incredibly entrepreneurial and much more of a network rather than a rigid structure.
It's sort of like the gig economy of organized crime. You might have one small group that works on just kidnapping people, another group that traffics them into scam compounds in Myanmar, the Philippines, or Cambodia, and another small group that just registers foreign SIM cards in iPhones that the scammers use.
Another group specializes in just one part of the money laundering chain. That is something really important to understand in order for us to figure out how to even begin tackling this problem. But beyond this big shift in how transnational crime works, I hope people will remember the stories we tell in this podcast series. There are so many incredible characters—some with very tragic stories, some moving, and some inspiring. I hope it's those voices that will stick with listeners.
Bernard Leong: When I was listening to it, I could feel the emotional stories coming out, specifically not just from the people being scammed but also from the scammers, because you profiled some of them along the way. One term that stood out was "pig butchering," which was covered in the series. I found it very interesting that you had a Chinese podcaster explain the entire concept. Why is this term so fitting for describing these scams, and how do its origins in China inform the global phenomenon of scamming?
Sue-Lin Wong: It's quite a distinctive term—pig butchering—because it's a direct translation from the Chinese sha zhu pan. What’s important to understand about how this scam works is that criminals see scam victims as pigs to fatten up. They try to build trust, spend time talking to them, and then go in for the slaughter—when they attempt to dupe the victim out of large sums of money. I first heard about the term pig butchering in Chinese when I was covering China. One of my favorite Chinese-language podcasts, Guxue FM or Story FM, has done a lot of reporting on pig butchering scams. I was very excited for Scam Inc. to be able to interview the host of that Chinese podcast about the origins of the term and how he has covered this huge story in China.
Bernard Leong: That was one of the most memorable parts of the podcast when I was listening to it. There were two stories in particular that stood out—one from Shane Haynes in Kansas and Carina, who lost $150,000 in a crypto scam. Why are these individuals so susceptible to these scams? Is it because of the COVID-19 era, where people became lonely and isolated? Or are there specific manipulation techniques that scammers use to exploit them in their vulnerable states?
Sue-Lin Wong: That’s exactly right. Scammers use incredibly sophisticated and predatory psychological manipulation to prey on all of our vulnerabilities. They identify frailties and exploit them—whether it’s greed, fear, loneliness, grief, boredom, or even exhaustion.
Sometimes, I’m scrolling through my phone and get sent a link, and I don’t think much about it. But if that link contained malware, it could completely ruin my life if I clicked on it. Scammers are very good at identifying human vulnerabilities, and they have countless tactics to catch people off guard.
For example, in love scams, they might start by love bombing—showering someone with attention and affection. Once they’ve built trust, they use urgency, saying, "You have to put your money in right now," or fear, such as, "If you don’t do this, you’ll regret it." They might even gaslight the victim.
One aspect of this story that I became really obsessed with while reporting Scam Inc. was the psychology behind scams. Why do people fall for them? I started out this project thinking, "Oh, I would never fall for a scam. I wouldn’t be that stupid." But after working on this for several months, I’ve completely changed my mind. I now believe that any of us could fall for a scam, depending on where we are mentally and emotionally and how well scammers know how to press our buttons.
I’ve come away with a lot more humility than when I started.
Bernard Leong: I follow this particular conference called DEFCON, which is the world's largest cybersecurity conference. One of the competitions focuses on social engineering, and I recall a story where, within four minutes, a participant was able to extract a significant amount of personal information from someone just by engaging in casual conversation and asking qualifying questions. The ability to manipulate people emotionally is something that often goes unnoticed.
From the scammers, we move into the interconnected nature of scamming. One issue that stood out from the podcast was how criminal syndicates from China have relocated their operations to Southeast Asia and other parts of the world. What insights can you share about the evolving landscape of cybercrime, and what is its impact on global economies and societies? This seems to be one of the most underreported aspects of the issue.
Even living in Southeast Asia myself, I find it concerning, especially for my kids. There are increasing cases of human trafficking, and one of the most disturbing stories from the podcast was about individuals from the Philippines and Nigeria who were tricked into taking jobs abroad, only to end up trafficked into scam compounds in Myanmar.
Sue-Lin Wong: Just like pig butchering is a term that originates from China, the roots of this entire scam industry can also be traced back there. For years, Chinese criminals were primarily scamming fellow Chinese citizens, largely because of the rise of online payments through platforms like WeChat and Alipay. These took off earlier in China than in other parts of the world, where bank transfers remained more common.
When Xi Jinping came to power, his sweeping anti-corruption campaign targeted many illicit networks, including those in Macau, which has long been Asia’s gambling hub. Many criminals operating there were forced to move their activities to Southeast Asia. Initially, they relocated to the Philippines, but over time, they spread to Myanmar, Cambodia, and Thailand. This was the beginning of the global online scam industry, as Chinese-origin syndicates realized that online fraud was an incredibly lucrative business.
They transitioned from illicit trades like drugs, prostitution, and online gambling to large-scale online fraud. Initially, these syndicates primarily targeted Chinese victims, but when COVID-19 made it difficult to recruit low-level scammers from China due to border closures, they began diversifying. They realized they didn’t need to limit themselves to Chinese victims—they could target people all over the world.
That’s when they started kidnapping English-speaking individuals from different countries. Our podcast features stories from victims in the Philippines, Uganda, South Africa, and South Asia. What started as a China-centric issue has now grown into a massive global problem.
Bernard Leong: That was a particularly striking part of the series. Another perspective you covered was that of the scammers themselves. One such story was about Rita from the Philippines, who provided an insider perspective on how scam compounds in Myanmar operate. What were some of the key takeaways from her experience regarding the structure, motivations, and ethical dilemmas faced by individuals working in these compounds?
Some of them managed to escape and share their stories, but I imagine there are still a large number of people trapped in these operations. Many families are struggling to find and locate their loved ones.
Sue-Lin Wong: It’s a deeply tragic story. In 2023, the United Nations estimated that nearly a quarter of a million people in Myanmar and Cambodia had been trafficked and forced to scam victims around the world. The problem persists because thousands of people are being tricked into what they believe are legitimate jobs in customer service or online marketing in places like Bangkok.
They are given plane tickets, flown to Bangkok, and then picked up at the airport under the pretense of being taken to their accommodations. In reality, they are trafficked across the border into Myanmar, where they are forced to work in scam compounds.
However, what complicates the situation even further is that the vast majority of people working in these scam compounds are actually there voluntarily. Due to war, poverty, or lack of opportunities, many people are simply looking for stable, well-paid jobs. Excluding Singapore, the average salary in most of Southeast Asia is only a few hundred US dollars per month.
Many highly educated individuals, including university graduates fluent in multiple languages, see this as an opportunity for employment. This presents a significant challenge for law enforcement—what can they do when so many people are incentivized to seek out these jobs to support themselves and their families?
The human trafficking aspect of this story is devastating, but the fact that some people are willingly engaging in scams as a means of survival adds another layer of complexity. It’s a very difficult issue to tackle.
Bernard Leong: For those who return, some even choose to go back and work in these operations again. That was another deeply unsettling revelation from the podcast. From all your research and reporting, what is the one thing you’ve learned about scams that very few people understand?
Sue-Lin Wong: I think the biggest takeaway is that we are all vulnerable. Before working on this podcast, I assumed that only a small group of people would fall for these scams. But what I’ve learned is that these scammers are incredibly sophisticated and well-funded.
Based on my reporting, this industry may now be more lucrative than the illicit drug trade, with criminal syndicates generating over $500 billion annually. That level of wealth gives them access to the latest technology, including voice cloning and face-changing software. They can purchase cutting-edge AI tools and stay several steps ahead of law enforcement across the world.
What makes this so difficult for governments, police, international organizations, banks, crypto exchanges, and social media companies is that these scammers reinvest their profits to further improve their operations. They view scams not as crimes but as a business—one that they constantly refine and expand.
That’s why we called the podcast Scam Inc.—because what we are seeing is an entire industry driven by profit. The sheer amount of money these criminals have at their disposal makes this an incredibly challenging problem to solve.
Bernard Leong: That's also one of the angles I thought made the story really interesting. When you mentioned it as an enterprise, there are significant economic drivers behind the incentives and behaviors involved. One story that stood out was that of Alice Guo, a mayor in the Philippines, which raises questions about state capture by criminal enterprises.
What does her case reveal about the intersection of politics, corruption, and the scam industry in Southeast Asia? Maybe you can talk a little bit about her story and why dealing with these issues socially has become so difficult.
Sue-Lin Wong: As I was starting this project and spending some time in Kansas, I saw a story break in the Philippines about a small-town mayor accused of being a Chinese spy.
Bernard Leong: That's right.
Sue-Lin Wong: Somehow, this was all connected to scam compounds, and I thought, what is going on there? I went to the Philippines and visited this small town, Bamban, after the mayor had already disappeared, which turned into an episode of Scam Inc..
Essentially, this woman claimed to be Filipino and spoke fluent Tagalog. She ran for mayor of this small town, but it was later revealed that she was an enabler for scam criminals. Bamban is a very small, rundown town with mostly one-story buildings. However, right next to the mayor's office, there was an enormous tech park with 36 high-rise buildings—something you would expect to see in downtown Singapore or New York.
This turned out to be a massive scam compound run by criminals of Chinese origin. Alice Guo, the mayor, had her name on utilities bills and official documents, but it turned out she was actually Guo Huaping, a Chinese national who had moved to the Philippines, obtained a Filipino passport, and learned how to navigate the political system to help these criminals set up operations. They used the town as a base to run scam operations targeting victims worldwide.
The whole country became obsessed with the story. Normally, the average Filipino isn’t too interested in Senate hearings, but in this case, they were watching hours of them unfold. The revelations became more shocking as more details emerged. Then, while I was making the podcast, Al Jazeera released a documentary claiming she was a Chinese spy. That led me down a rabbit hole of trying to figure out the legitimacy of those allegations.
My conclusions? Well, you'll have to listen to the podcast.
Bernard Leong: Yeah, I think listeners should definitely check out the podcast to understand the full extent of the story.
Sue-Lin Wong: If I may add, I don’t think the Philippines is an exception. Unfortunately, criminal syndicates have figured out how to infiltrate high levels of business and government across Southeast Asia. The Philippines is more of a case study than an outlier. What’s even more shocking is that while this industry began in China and then spread to Southeast Asia, it is now going global.
Sue-Lin Wong: Scam compounds have been discovered in places as far as Peru, Georgia, and Ghana. There was even one found last year in the Isle of Man, between England and Ireland.
Bernard Leong: Eastern Europe as well.
Sue-Lin Wong: Yes, Eastern Europe too. This problem isn’t going away anytime soon.
Bernard Leong: Since we are based in Singapore, this issue really hits home. The recent high-profile money laundering case here exposed how illicit funds from scams are legitimized and spent. To be fair, the Singapore government worked with Interpol to apprehend the perpetrators. Your podcast highlights how authorities here have been proactive in educating citizens on scam prevention.
What are the common methods scammers use to launder stolen money, and what does this reveal about the vulnerabilities of global financial networks?
Sue-Lin Wong: When I started digging into the Kansas bank collapse, where the CEO fell victim to a pig butchering scam and embezzled $47 million from his own bank—
Bernard Leong: That's right.
Sue-Lin Wong: He thought he was making money in crypto, but in reality, he had sent the funds to scammers. I became obsessed with the question: where did that $47 million go? More broadly, where do the hundreds of billions of dollars in scam proceeds end up? A big part of my podcast series traces these financial flows.
The Singapore money laundering case—the largest in the country’s history and one of the biggest globally—offers a fascinating case study of how criminals operate. Once scam money is stolen, syndicates disperse it across multiple crypto wallets, moving it rapidly to evade law enforcement tracking. They use various laundering services within the scamming industry itself. As I mentioned earlier, some scam networks specialize solely in money laundering.
Criminals use laundering services to cycle their funds through multiple crypto wallets and sometimes mix illicit money with legitimate transactions. Then, they try to reintegrate this money into the global financial system. In Singapore’s case, they used money mules—often young Singaporeans recruited by friends to open bank accounts under their names but linked to different phone numbers.
You and I see ads everywhere in Singapore warning people not to become money mules. That’s directly connected to Scam Inc. and the Singapore money laundering case. Low-level money mules are one of the key ways criminals move dirty money into the legitimate economy, transferring funds into accounts registered under individuals who don’t realize the full extent of their involvement.
Another common method is through shell companies. Criminals set up companies with no real operations to reintegrate illicit funds back into the global economy. Ultimately, the scam proceeds end up in major financial hubs—places where these criminals want to live, send their children to elite schools, and invest in assets.
That’s why places like Singapore, Dubai, New York, and London are often at the center of money laundering investigations.
Bernard Leong: I recall a story from when I was head of the Singapore Post Office network. There were incidents where grandmothers came in wanting to remit large sums—two or three thousand dollars. Fortunately, my service ambassadors intervened and stopped them. We had to bring in the police to prevent them from wiring the money because they insisted it was for someone they trusted. After that, we worked closely with law enforcement to prevent similar cases. I believe a recent law was passed in Singapore, stating that banks cannot freeze accounts, whereas previously, it was left to the customer’s discretion. As someone working in digital finance, I often tell my colleagues at conferences that while moving money has become as simple as pressing a button, having a human in the loop—like at the post office—prevents people from losing their life savings. Otherwise, many elderly people would be at risk.
Sue-Lin Wong: In some cases, grandmothers were also recruited as money mules.
Bernard Leong: No, they weren’t recruited—they were being manipulated into sending their life savings. This early form of scam victimization has been happening for a long time. I remember my service ambassadors stepping in to block transfers, and I believe they deserved recognition for their efforts. People don’t always realize how vulnerable the system has become, especially with the rise of seamless and frictionless digital money transfers.
Shifting back to money laundering and scams, I previously had a guest from Chainalysis on my show. Their work in tracing the flow of illicit funds is crucial. Can you explain the capabilities and limitations of using cryptocurrencies to track scam money, and how does this add complexity to scam operations? From my understanding as a cryptocurrency investor, many criminals now avoid crypto because it is easily traceable.
Sue-Lin Wong: That’s a common misconception. I initially knew very little about cryptocurrencies, but I learned that crypto isn’t untraceable—it’s anonymous.
Bernard Leong: It’s not untraceable.
Sue-Lin Wong: Exactly. Crypto transactions can be traced, but unlike bank transfers, crypto doesn’t necessarily require personal details to send and receive money. That’s why scammers encourage victims to use cryptocurrencies—there’s less oversight compared to traditional banking systems.
Chainalysis, a firm I interviewed for Scam Inc., specializes in crypto forensics. Their analysts function like private investigators, tracking transactions across blockchain networks. They helped me trace where the money from the Kansas bank collapse went after the CEO embezzled it.
Often, scam money moves from wallet to wallet, making it hard to follow. What was particularly fascinating in the Kansas case was how the stolen funds pooled with other scam proceeds. The CEO fell for a common scam that others had also encountered. For example, a man in Minnesota lost over $9 million.
Bernard Leong: That’s right.
Sue-Lin Wong: Another man in California lost over $2 million—all to the same scam, which could be traced back to a domain called CoinRuleWeb3. The scammers would keep changing their domain from .net to .shop to evade law enforcement. They are very skilled at setting up new websites to continue operations.
However, we did track where $8 million of the stolen crypto ultimately ended up, and I encourage listeners to tune in to the podcast to learn more.
Bernard Leong: Now that we know so much more, what policy recommendations or actionable insights do you hope listeners will take away from this podcast series?
Sue-Lin Wong: It’s difficult to expect individuals to fight a multi-billion-dollar scam industry, but there are some key takeaways. First, it’s important to recognize that scamming is an industry with many different players involved in what I call the ‘scam chain.’
A scam often begins with internet service providers or telecom companies, as scammers rely on their platforms. Then, it moves to messaging apps or social media. Later, victims may transfer money through banks or crypto exchanges. Some scammers even exploit e-commerce platforms.
The only way to truly combat scams is for every part of the scam chain to coordinate efforts. No single entity can solve this problem alone.
Some Asian countries are making progress. I wanted to go to China to investigate further, as the Chinese Communist Party has taken aggressive action against scams—producing educational TV shows, movies, and songs to warn the public. They have also arrested over 800,000 criminals connected to online scams in the past three years. However, gaining access to China for reporting was difficult.
Instead, I looked at Southeast Asia, where countries like Australia, Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore have set up dedicated anti-scam task forces. These groups work to coordinate banks, law enforcement, and online platforms to combat scams effectively.
Singapore’s approach is arguably world-class because they physically locate banks, e-commerce firms, and police units together. This means that when a scam is reported, different organizations can coordinate in real time to try to recover stolen money.
Other countries should study what’s happening here in Asia because we are at the frontline of online scams. Governments in the region have had to develop advanced policy responses due to the scale of the problem.
Bernard Leong: On an individual level, what can people do to protect themselves?
Sue-Lin Wong: Everyone should assume that every online interaction is a scam until proven otherwise. That sounds cynical, but it’s a necessary mindset in today’s world.
Bernard Leong: And with AI now in the mix?
Sue-Lin Wong: AI is going to make scams even more sophisticated. Given where we are, the best way to protect ourselves is by staying vigilant. Offline, in the real world, it’s also crucial to talk to family and friends about financial matters. One common scam tactic is isolation—scammers tell victims, “Don’t tell anyone about this investment because they won’t understand.” If you ever find yourself thinking, “This opportunity sounds too good to be true,” it’s time to check with someone you trust. Getting a second opinion can be the key to avoiding a devastating scam.
Bernard Leong: I think you also leave a particular tactic that I'm going to leave my listeners to go and listen to the podcast. In the last episode, you discuss what happens with AI. As you identified earlier, one of the key issues is the vulnerability of individuals.
How can individuals and communities build resilience against these scams? And beyond that, how do we create a more forgiving and supportive society to help victims? I remember the case of the Kansas bank, where the judge had to make the final verdict. One of the most striking questions from that judge was, "Why did you do this?" That part of the podcast really brought out my emotions—how the person being scammed ended up in that situation.
Sue-Lin Wong: How did it draw out your emotions?
Bernard Leong: It was just shocking to see how someone could fall into something that seemed so obviously fraudulent. This man was a respected member of his community before everything unfolded, and throughout the entire legal process, he never once explained why he did what he did. That was what really struck me—he should have spoken up rather than leaving everyone guessing. I think it would have been fairer for those who lost their savings to understand what happened.
Sue-Lin Wong: Sorry, when you say he should have spoken up, do you mean before he stole all the money?
Bernard Leong: Yes, before he stole all the money. I usually don’t sympathize with scam victims, but this case was different.
Sue-Lin Wong: You mean you felt sympathy?
Bernard Leong: Yes, I usually do not sympathize with scam victims, but this was one of the rare times I did. Maybe it's because of how your podcast framed the story—it caught my attention in a way I didn’t expect.
Sue-Lin Wong: Well, thank you very much. So, as you listened to the podcast, you became more sympathetic to the bank CEO?
Bernard Leong: Yes.
Sue-Lin Wong: Interesting.
Bernard Leong: I wasn’t particularly sympathetic at the start, but as I binge-listened, my perspective shifted.
Sue-Lin Wong: Yeah.
Bernard Leong: How do you think individuals and communities can protect themselves? You’ve mentioned that people should talk to their family and friends more. But what about victims—how can society help them recover? Many scammers you profiled were forced into these operations, making it incredibly difficult for them to reintegrate into normal life after being trafficked and coerced.
Sue-Lin Wong: There are so many different victims in the world of scamming, which makes this issue particularly horrific. One crucial aspect is understanding how these scams operate. We must also be careful not to engage in victim-blaming.
Many scam victims I interviewed shared a common experience: when they reported their cases to the police, they were often met with skepticism. Law enforcement officers would tell them, "But you sent the money voluntarily—what’s the crime? You were just careless."
As a society, we need to recognize that scammers use highly sophisticated psychological tactics—essentially psychological weapons. In the podcast, we delve into techniques like love bombing, gaslighting, fear, and urgency. These are not just persuasion tactics; they are weapons, much like a knife or a gun. Law enforcement, governments, and policymakers need to understand that victims are up against a highly manipulative and well-organized industry.
The Kansas bank case is slightly different, as the CEO did steal $47 million from his own bank. That case raises even more complex ethical and legal questions, which we explore in the series.
Bernard Leong: I’m glad you covered the final verdict in the podcast. I’ll let listeners discover what happened for themselves. Now, I have two quick questions before we wrap up. First, what is one question you wish people would ask you about scamming that they never do?
Sue-Lin Wong: Reporting this story was incredibly complex—figuring out how to research it, how to structure the reporting, and how to write the script. As a journalist, I’m obsessed with process. I love talking to other journalists about how they work. When I meet writers or artists, I’m fascinated by their creative processes.
Bernard Leong: So, you wish people would ask about the making of the podcast?
Sue-Lin Wong: Yes. I’m not sure if that’s something listeners would be interested in, but as a journalist, it’s something I think about all the time.
Bernard Leong: I’ll keep that in mind the next time I interview another podcast creator. My final question: what does success look like for Scam Inc. from your perspective? Beyond listener numbers, of course.
Sue-Lin Wong: Oh, but we always want more listeners! Honestly, as journalists, we just want people to listen to our podcasts and read our articles. That would be success for me.
Sue-Lin Wong: More importantly, I hope that in some small way, we’ve helped people understand the complexity of this sophisticated industry that ultimately affects all of us. If listeners walk away with a slightly better understanding of how scams work and share this knowledge with friends and family, that’s success to me.
Bernard Leong: And fostering a less judgmental attitude as well. A lack of empathy often compounds the suffering of victims.
Thank you so much for coming on the show and having this conversation. Before we close, any recommendations that have inspired you recently?
Sue-Lin Wong: I just finished reading A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth. It’s a long novel about four families during India’s independence, but at its core, it’s a story about life and what it means to live well. It was completely gripping—I loved it so much. I’m honestly sad that I finished it because all I want to do is start reading it again.
Bernard Leong: Wow, a book worth re-reading. And where can my audience find you?
Sue-Lin Wong: You can find Scam Inc. wherever you listen to podcasts. The first three episodes are available for everyone, and you can subscribe to Economist Podcast Plus for just two dollars a month to support our journalism. This was a multi-month project, and investigative journalism is expensive—so any support is greatly appreciated.
Sue-Lin Wong: You can also find me on LinkedIn, X, Blue Sky, and other social media platforms.
Bernard Leong: You can find this podcast across all major platforms. Subscribe to us on YouTube, Spotify, and our LinkedIn newsletter. Thank you so much for coming on the show—I’m really glad we finally had this conversation. I’ve listened to both of your series, and I appreciate the work you’ve done.
Sue-Lin Wong: Thank you so much, Bernard, and thank you for listening to both series.
Podcast Information: Bernard Leong (@bernardleong, Linkedin) hosts and produces the show. Proper credits for the intro and end music: "Energetic Sports Drive" and the episode is mixed & edited in both video and audio format by G. Thomas Craig (@gthomascraig, LinkedIn). Here are the links to watch or listen to our podcast.
