Why Southeast Asia Matters with Gullnaz Baig
Fresh out of the studio, Gullnaz Baig, executive director from the Angsana Council, shares her perspectives on the "Southeast Asia Outlook 2024-2034: Navigating the High Winds" report by Angsana Council, DBS and Bain & Co. In our conversation, Gullnaz emphasized Southeast Asia’s unique strengths, including its cultural diversity, openness to innovation, and ability to navigate geopolitical complexities between global powers like China and the U.S. She highlighted Southeast Asia’s resilience, citing its rising wealth, improving standards of living, and comparative advantages such as Vietnam’s strong STEM workforce and the Philippines’ English-speaking talent. Last but not least, she described the importance of leveraging regional collaboration and technology to foster sustainable growth and offered her thoughts on what great would look like for the region.
"People always ask us this question, what can I learn from that country? People ask us about this from the report especially when we're talking to policymakers, or what should I learn from Malaysia? What should I learn? The thing to learn is to not learn to replicate exactly. But the thing to learn is sort of what are the principles behind what works for them. What are your comparative advantages, Every country needs to be asking that for themselves. So for Vietnam, comparative advantages are things like proximity to China, and the ability at a geopolitical level to navigate between the U.S. and China. They do this pretty delicately, given their history with both countries. There's an acquiescence by the major powers also to not force Vietnam to take sides. So, it's a delicate balancing game that ASEAN always plays ..." - Gullnaz Baig
Profile: Gullnaz Baig, Executive Director of Angsana Council (LinkedIn, Angsana Council)
Here is the edited transcript of our conversation:
Bernard Leong: Welcome to Analyse Asia, the premier podcast dedicated to dissecting the pulse of business technology and media in Asia. I'm Bernard Leong, and we have two perspectives on Southeast Asia. So where are the high winds for the region and how would we navigate? the markets. With me today, is Gullnaz Baig, Executive Director of Ansana Council. Gullnaz, welcome to the show.
Gullnaz Baig: Hi Bernard, thank you so much for having me on.
Bernard Leong: Yes, we bumped into each other at the Sync AI event organized by Tech in Asia. Then we proceed to discuss the report, and then we come to today. So, like always, I ask my first-time guests about their origin stories, how did you start your career?
whenWell, it's an odd one to me because I feel like I stumbled into my career over time, so it wasn't a conscious decision. If you had asked 18-year-old me if I would end up here, I could not have imagined it, right? I started off in government in Singapore and spent about six to seven years there, largely in policymaking. That has been the consistent thread throughout my career trajectory—I’ve always been very much a policy person. During my time in government, I worked on policymaking in areas like the social sector and education. That experience brought to light the importance of balancing short-term data insights with long-term thinking and considering the scale and demographic impacts of government reforms. I learned a lot of valuable skills in that role.
Over time, I transitioned into big tech, starting with Facebook. I had a very interesting role there, which involved building out the company’s counterterrorism policy efforts. That was when I began to think about scale in a completely different way. When your products and services are used by billions of people across diverse countries, the impact is immense, and your assumptions are constantly challenged by how people innovate and adapt technology in ways you may not have anticipated. That was truly eye-opening for me.
I then went on to lead teams across other big tech companies, a startup, and similar spaces, all focused on public policy and product policy. Now, I find myself leading a not-for-profit advisory council, which is sponsored and supported by a pioneering VC in Singapore. This VC invests in early-stage tech startups across Southeast Asia. This role brings together everything I’ve done so far—policy, technology, and long-term research perspectives—to figure out how we can truly leverage technology to achieve sustainable growth for the region, benefiting as many people as possible.
Bernard Leong: Can you introduce the Angsana Council and its current focus?
Gullnaz Baig: Sure. I briefly mentioned the council in my origin story, but let me elaborate. The Angsana Council is a not-for-profit advisory council focused on Southeast Asia. We operate in a space where technology intersects with sustainable growth for the region. Our mission is twofold.
The genesis of the Angsana Council came from the experiences of the partners at Mungsil Ventures, who often found themselves explaining Southeast Asia to global investors. These investors would ask questions like, “How close is Southeast Asia to China?” or “Why invest in Southeast Asia and not India?” Some would say, “I’m a U.S.-based investor; I understand Latin America as an emerging market, but what is Southeast Asia?” It became clear that there’s a huge storytelling gap about the region’s potential, and that became one part of our mission: telling the story of Southeast Asia.
The other part of our mission emerged from our work travelling around the region. We discovered that within Southeast Asia, countries were often curious about each other. For instance, in Thailand, people wanted to know about manufacturing developments in Malaysia. In Vietnam, they were keen to understand what was happening in the Philippines. In the Philippines, they would ask how Singapore built its AI innovation ecosystem. We kept getting these types of questions. That led us to our second mission: helping Southeast Asia understand itself better. By fostering a deeper understanding of the region’s comparative advantages, we aim to unlock its full potential.
This twofold mission—to share Southeast Asia’s story globally and to deepen intra-regional understanding—is what drives the Angsana Council’s work.
Bernard Leong: So, just before we get to the main subject of the day, I want to ask you, from your career journey, what are the lessons you can share with my audience?
Gullnaz Baig: Sure. There’s a lot that I’ve learned in my life. I started my career with the mindset of just doing my job well and believing that it would speak for itself. Over time, though, I realized that where I’ve grown the most has been when I had people backing me up—people who saw potential in me that I didn’t even see in myself. If I could give your listeners one piece of advice, it would be to find those people who believe in you and who can help you grow.
I currently work with Charles Ormiston, or Charlie, at the Angsana Council, who chairs our trustee. I also work with Peng, who many of your listeners might know. These are people who challenge me in different ways. For instance, my one-on-one conversations with Ping often delve into philosophical discussions about technology and its real implications. He challenges me to think differently, and though we are very different—almost like a chicken and a duck having a conversation—it has helped me grow significantly.
My advice to anyone, especially startup founders who might feel lonely at times, is to find your sounding board—those people who can provide different perspectives and help you grow. There’s a common saying: “You are the sum of the five people you’re closest to.” Think about this in your career as well. Surround yourself with people who inspire you and help you navigate challenges.
Bernard Leong: That’s a pretty interesting point about being the average of the five. I tell my kids the same thing—that you need someone at the top to look up to so you can aspire to get better, as well as friends who can support you and communicate with you.
Now, let’s move to the main subject of the day. We’re going to talk about the report "Southeast Asia’s outlook 2024-2034" published by the Angsana Council (Monk's Hill Ventures), Bain & Co. and DBS. Soon, we’ll be stepping into 2025. There are strong winds ahead, and I think it’s perfect to have you here to discuss it. I’m hearing two very different narratives—one, from the recent Lightspeed report, and the other, from Google, Temasek, and Bain’s annual e-conomy SEA report. Before diving into the specifics, let me first ask you: What inspired the creation of the Southeast Asia Outlook 2024-2034 report? And what are the key takeaways you want readers to understand about the region’s future trajectory?
Gullnaz Baig: I love the e-conomy SEA report from Google, Bain and Temasek, and I know you’ve had them on your podcast. I see our report as complementary to what they delve into. We probably sit more in the macro space, providing contextual underpinnings, whereas they go deeper into the digital economy. While separate teams worked on both reports, it was interesting to see that we independently came to similar conclusions on themes like strengthening capital markets and the immense potential of the digital economy for the Southeast Asian ecosystem.
Coming back to your question, this is actually our second report between the Angsana Council and Bain, but it’s the first time we’ve collaborated as a tripartite team with DBS joining us. When the three partners came together, we decided to make it a fully pro bono collaboration. Our first question was, “How do we make something meaningful?” There are already so many macroeconomic reports out there. Organizations like the IMF, WEF, and others have pushed out loads of datasets and analyses. So, what could we do differently? What’s our value at Angsana?
The second question we asked was, “How do we leverage our differences?” We’re three very different entities—a consultancy, an institutional bank, and a not-for-profit organization. How could we bring our insights together in a way that’s holistic and makes sense? I think we went through several iterations. At one point, we had over a hundred slides—it felt like we were each writing a PhD! But eventually, we sat down and focused on our core expertise.
The first thing we wanted to do was contextualize Southeast Asian growth. Charlie, with his extensive experience working deeply in the region, brought vast expertise on business trajectories. The Angsana Council contributed insights from our trustees and members, who straddle the public and private sectors. We’ve observed policy changes, businesses entering and exiting, and so on. Meanwhile, DBS brought their research team's modelling capabilities, something we didn’t have in our first report. Combining these perspectives allowed us to create a comprehensive context for understanding regional growth.
We also decided to take a different approach by going beyond short-term forecasts. While most reports provide six-month or two-year outlooks, we went out on a limb and developed a ten-year forecast. For governments and businesses, long-term forecasting is crucial for longitudinal planning, which is often missing due to the focus on short-term KPIs.
Lastly, we explored key opportunities. Bain, with its focus on larger businesses, helped identify emerging areas where we’re seeing significant investment. Together, we outlined five key opportunity areas that countries and businesses can lean into to accelerate growth.
These elements—contextualizing growth, long-term forecasting, and identifying key opportunities—form the three broad parameters of the report. Of course, there were many other things we wanted to include, but as with any research, you have to narrow the scope. Hopefully, we’ll revisit some of those areas in future reports.
Bernard Leong: You are totally right about this one. One interesting part which I also gathered from the e-Conomy SEA report team, is that putting together a report with three different institutions is an extremely difficult task. You have to combine three perspectives and, as you said, bring them together cohesively while managing the differences.
Maybe you can help me understand where, over the past 30 years, Southeast Asia has demonstrated economic resilience. I think back to the 1997 Asian financial crisis and, later, the global financial crisis. What were the most critical factors that drove stable growth across the region during this period?
Gullnaz Baig: I’m going to take the question a step back and challenge the hypothesis a bit. I think, yes and no, we’ve had good growth, but it hasn’t been the best period of growth for us. I think we’re from the same generation, and many folks listening to this podcast might be of our generation or younger, so we don’t remember the 1980s because we were either too young or not born yet.
However, during the 1980s, some countries in the region experienced double-digit growth. By comparison, over the last 30 years, the region has had modest growth relative to other emerging markets. I would describe it as stable rather than spectacular. While it wasn’t a steep uphill climb, stability itself is significant.
That said, we’ve also faced periods of instability, the most recent being COVID-19. Some countries, like Vietnam, have shown outright recovery from it. In fact, in our report, we show Vietnam’s GDP trajectory, which is on par with China and India. However, for the rest of Southeast Asia’s major economies, the recovery has been more tapered. Some countries have done better than others, while some are still recovering.
In the past 30 years, it’s been an up-and-down journey. However, what has been consistent is steady growth. We’ve also seen rising wealth and improving standards of living for the average Southeast Asian. Except for Myanmar, the region has remained relatively peaceful, which is fundamental for growth.
A key factor is that most Southeast Asian governments are relatively stable. While there are recent upheavals and concerns about the retreat of democracy in some places, overall governance has been stable. Could it improve? Absolutely. Strengthening governance across the region is essential. In addition, people’s skill sets have been improving, which has fueled growth.
Another important factor is the region’s ability to balance between the East and the West. For the longest time, Southeast Asia has been a region that could successfully navigate between these geopolitical influences. This balancing act has helped attract foreign direct investment (FDI) in key sectors, particularly manufacturing. Strong fundamentals—like governance, infrastructure, and talent—combined with a receptiveness to FDI and global talent have been core ingredients for the region’s stable growth.
Bernard Leong: But there’s also varying development maturity within Southeast Asian countries. For example, Singapore can be compared to a first-tier city in the United States, whereas Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Vietnam are considered emerging markets. Then other countries could be described as frontier markets. I’d also add Thailand to the list of emerging markets. Singapore’s growth is slower due to its maturity, while countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, and the Philippines—sometimes called the VIP markets—are growing more quickly. What structural challenges do these countries face in achieving higher growth?
Gullnaz Baig: Let’s start with Singapore. It’s already at such a level of economic maturity that expecting a high growth rate is very challenging. One key structural challenge for Singapore is demographics. Elon Musk recently tweeted that Singapore could become “extinct” because of its low fertility rate. While I don’t agree with that extreme view, Singapore indeed faces challenges with domestic population replacement. However, Singapore has done a good job of attracting global talent, which mitigates some of the demographic concerns.
The challenge for Singapore is more on the socio-cultural side—how to maintain a sense of Singaporean identity in the face of demographic changes. This isn’t the same as other countries in the region, like Thailand, which also faces demographic challenges but struggles more with attracting talent. Previously, Thailand could attract talent more easily, but now it faces increased competition from countries like Malaysia, the Philippines, and Singapore.
Demographics remain a significant challenge across Southeast Asia, particularly in Singapore and Thailand. Beyond that, there are issues like rising costs. In Singapore and Thailand, rising construction and energy costs make it difficult to establish large-scale manufacturing bases.
That said, even with these challenges, Singapore and Thailand continue to attract investment. Why? Fundamentally, investors trust that the money they put into these countries won’t disappear. They trust the government policies and the infrastructure.
Bernard Leong: And the rule of law.
Gullnaz Baig: On the rule of law, I think, particularly in tech, issues like data and cybersecurity are supported by a solid infrastructure here. It’s interesting, though—it’s almost counterintuitive. You’d think companies would build plants where labour is cheaper and manufacturing costs are lower. But fundamentally, we see money still being pumped into places where there’s faith in the ecosystem—faith that incentives, policies, and tax breaks will be put in place and followed through.
Even for countries like Indonesia, we were challenged on our forecast during the launch of this report. People asked, “Shouldn’t it be higher?” While Indonesia has healthy demographics, one of the key uncertainties is its ability to follow through on policies without pulling back. Some measures, like protectionism and down streaming in core sectors, create significant barriers to further investment. It’s a balance, and you’ll see varying levels of success across the region. Vietnam, for example, should continue on a strong growth trajectory.
Bernard Leong: Yes.
Gullnaz Baig: Vietnam has solid fundamentals and strong comparative advantages, primarily its proximity to China, which has benefitted its manufacturing base. But it’s not just location; it’s also about its people. Vietnam has the highest female participation rate in the labor force across Southeast Asia, and one of the highest in the world. The country also boasts very high education levels, particularly in STEM fields. This historical focus on education is now paying off.
One interesting insight—this wasn’t in the report but it came up during our research—is where Vietnamese people channel their wealth as they become richer. Bernard, if you had to guess, where do you think they invest their excess money?
Bernard Leong: Real estate?
Gullnaz Baig: Actually, a lot of them invest in education. They’re already highly educated, but they seek opportunities to further upskill themselves.
Bernard Leong: That makes sense. In my last company, we set up a team in Vietnam. Even during my corporate roles with Airbus and AWS, I saw how interesting the region is. There are other factors as well—there’s a lot of talent in the Vietnamese diaspora, especially in Silicon Valley. For example, Uber’s former CTO was instrumental in attracting talent. Vietnam also has the critical mass population necessary for sustained growth, unlike Singapore or Malaysia, which struggle with smaller population sizes. If you compare it to Japan or Korea, where a population of around 120 million supports robust growth, Vietnam fits the bill. But do you think Vietnam’s success is primarily due to its focus on STEM, or are there other factors at play?
Gullnaz Baig: It’s always a multitude of factors. People often ask us what they can learn from a particular country—like, “What should Malaysia learn from Vietnam?” But the key isn’t to replicate exactly what works elsewhere. Instead, the focus should be on understanding the principles behind that success. For Vietnam, it’s about leveraging its comparative advantages, such as its proximity to China and its ability to balance geopolitics between the U.S. and China. This delicate balancing act is part of ASEAN’s overall strategy, and Vietnam plays a central role in it.
Another factor is infrastructure development. Vietnam has shown it can build and scale quickly, not as fast as China, but similarly productive. They can build manufacturing plants and service them efficiently. These are strengths Vietnam leans into.
Am I saying the Philippines should replicate Vietnam? No. Each country must identify its unique comparative advantages. That’s what we hope readers take from our report—operating principles rather than a “copy-and-paste” strategy. Contexts change, and so do opportunities. For example, Vietnam balances East and West effectively and has diverse FDI inflows. Japanese investors are very active there.
Bernard Leong: If you visit Da Nang, you’ll see it’s practically a Korean town because Samsung has a major factory there. You’ll even find more Korean restaurants than Vietnamese ones. It’s a good example of how global influences shape the region. For instance, in the Philippines, we think of business process outsourcing, customer service, and professionals working overnight to match Western time zones. These quirks and dynamics are fascinating.
Gullnaz Baig: Absolutely. And the Philippines’ comparative advantage is tied to its large, English-speaking population. A lot of U.S.-based big tech companies rely on the Philippines for customer service because of the ability to communicate effectively in American English. This is a major strength in the services sector, and the Philippines should continue to lean into it, while also looking to move up the value-added ladder within the sector.
Bernard Leong: So I think, given the recent spate of reports, as I alluded to earlier, there are different pundits with varying opinions. Some say that the Southeast Asia region is an illusion or a mirage that doesn’t really work. They argue that emerging startups should just stay within their respective economies.
They suggest that startups don’t need to aim for unicorn status—just being a centaur, achieving valuations above $100 million, would suffice. Personally, I think comparing reports and perspectives like this isn’t healthy and doesn’t help the situation. What are your perspectives on the region, given your experience with it? I feel like the answer lies somewhere in the middle, though I’m not exactly sure where that middle is.
Gullnaz Baig: I agree, the answer is somewhere in the middle, but it also depends on the type of startup and what problem you’re solving for. Let me break it down into two aspects: where to build and where to sell. If I were to set up a startup tomorrow, I wouldn’t limit myself to a single-country play—that would be short-sighted. Southeast Asia, in my view, is like a microcosm of the world. It encompasses different types of economies, populations, and communities within a single sub-region.
The question then becomes: how do you leverage that diversity? We’re already seeing startups do this. An ASEAN study found that over 60% of the 100 startups surveyed operated in more than two countries—not necessarily to sell, but to build and manage their operations and business processes across borders.
Many startups register in Singapore because of its ease of doing business. Singapore offers strong legal protections, recognized licenses, and an infrastructure that safeguards business rights and entities. However, while they may register in Singapore, they often build elsewhere. For example, you and I were discussing Vietnam earlier. Vietnam has world-class development teams, partly due to its strong STEM community. You also mentioned the role of diaspora communities, which I think is often underestimated in Southeast Asia.
These diaspora communities create global market links for countries within the region. Many startup founders leverage these connections to navigate cross-cultural nuances and operate in different markets effectively. Similarly, many talented individuals come into Southeast Asia because of these connections.
For me, it doesn’t make sense to build only in one country in Southeast Asia. Startups should leverage their comparative advantages, and the region increasingly allows them to do so. Initiatives from ASEAN, such as recognizing business licenses and enabling cross-border data flows, are steps in the right direction. That said, we need to accelerate these efforts. Malaysia will chair ASEAN next year, and I know the Digital Master Plan includes proposals that the Business Advisory Council will push forward. If ASEAN follows through, these measures will significantly help the region.
Bernard Leong: I think the digital infrastructure side is moving in the right direction. You can see AWS now has regions not just in Singapore but also in Malaysia and Indonesia, with Vietnam and Thailand coming up, and probably the Philippines as well. Digital infrastructure is increasingly allowing companies to scale across different economies more easily.
What is one thing you know about Southeast Asia that very few people do?
Gullnaz Baig: That’s a tough one, especially since many startup founders and tech professionals likely already know this. However, having worked in various big tech companies and witnessed the responsiveness to technology firsthand, I think people often overlook how receptive Southeast Asian communities are to new technology.
Whenever we rolled out a new feature or product, we would track where adoption was highest. Time and again, the Philippines and Indonesia ranked very high. Even with things like cryptocurrency, Southeast Asia has surprising hotspots—there’s a significant mining community in Sarawak, for example.
I remember an intern of mine who was Vietnamese and studying at Oxford. She shared that many people still talk to her as though Vietnam is stuck in the era of the Vietnam War, with people hiding in the mountains. This outdated mental image persists for much of Southeast Asia, but the reality couldn’t be more different. I’ve seen both sides of the tech adoption spectrum—the rapid uptake of new technology as well as its creative misuse.
Southeast Asia is unique in its receptiveness. There’s a strong “let’s try something new” mentality here, which you don’t see as consistently in many other markets. It’s a fundamental characteristic of the region that drives innovation and experimentation.
Bernard Leong: I think the digital infrastructure side is moving in the right direction. AWS, for example, now has regions not just in Singapore but also in Malaysia and Indonesia, with Vietnam and Thailand coming up soon, and probably the Philippines as well. This kind of digital infrastructure allows companies to scale across these different economies much more easily.
What is one thing you know about Southeast Asia that very few people do?
Gullnaz Baig: That’s a bit tricky because many startup founders and people in tech might already know this. But having worked in various big tech companies and observed the responsiveness to technology firsthand, I’d say that one overlooked fact is how receptive Southeast Asian communities are to new technology.
Whenever we rolled out a new feature or product, we tracked where adoption was highest, and the Philippines and Indonesia consistently ranked very high. Even in areas like cryptocurrency, Southeast Asia has surprising hotspots—for instance, there’s a significant mining community in Sarawak.
I also remember an intern of mine who was Vietnamese and studying at Oxford. She told me how people still talk to her as though Vietnam is stuck in the era of the Vietnam War. This outdated perception of Southeast Asia is far from reality. On one hand, I’ve seen the rapid uptake of new technology, and on the other, the creative misuse of technology. Both are prevalent in Southeast Asia, but the key characteristic here is the openness to trying new things. This receptiveness isn’t as common in many other markets.
Bernard Leong: And some American senators still confuse Singapore with China, despite having visited Singapore. I won’t name names, but it’s surprising when even senior policymakers can’t distinguish the TikTok CEO’s nationality as Singaporean rather than Chinese.
Let’s get back on track. With China’s rising influence in the region and the presence of Mainland Chinese founders—many of whom are ex-Tencent, NetEase, and Alibaba employees—starting up in Southeast Asia, along with the potential return of a second Trump administration in the U.S., what are the challenges and opportunities this presents for the region in the short and medium term?
Gullnaz Baig: In the short term, Southeast Asia has benefited from the “China Plus One” strategy. This concept, which focuses on diversifying supply chains to reduce dependency on China, isn’t solely about geopolitics. A lot of it stems from lessons learned during the COVID-19 pandemic when supply chains were disrupted due to market shutdowns. Diversification became a necessary strategy to ensure alternative supply chains.
Even Chinese businesses, as you mentioned, are hedging their bets. They’re thinking about how to mitigate risks such as rising tariffs, not just from the U.S. but also from the European Union. Interestingly, when we discuss our report with Western audiences, we often get asked whether we’re worried about China’s overcapacity flooding our markets. What many outside the region don’t understand is that China is a reality for us—it’s our neighbour. We don’t view it as a zero-sum game. It’s more like dealing with a family member—like that uncle, you have to see during Christmas or Lunar New Year.
We’ve been balancing relationships with China and the U.S. for a long time. While the U.S. brings its cultural values as the “visiting cousin,” China offers opportunities, particularly through its investments in Southeast Asia. In our report, we highlight that China is becoming a key investor in the region, not just through foreign direct investment but also in domestic capital formation, such as infrastructure development.
Bernard Leong: China’s ultra-competitive manufacturing and government-subsidized innovation have contributed to premature deindustrialization in some developing countries, including parts of Southeast Asia. Given that China is now our largest investor and the U.S. remains a major influence, how should Southeast Asia navigate this complex relationship in the future?
Gullnaz Baig: It’s definitely an interesting time, but we shouldn’t be too scared. For Southeast Asia, it’s always been “interesting times.” We’ve constantly had external influences shaping investment and trade decisions. The challenge is that Southeast Asia is highly dependent on external trade, more so than many other regions. For example, as outlined in our report, external trade impacts up to 89% of our GDP. If there’s a global contraction in trade, the region will inevitably suffer.
However, we can hedge against some of these risks by strengthening regional trade. Initiatives like RCEP, which reduce tariff barriers and improve cross-border flows, are steps in the right direction. These efforts to bring regional economies closer together will help mitigate global trade volatility.
Bernard Leong: How do you think the region should approach this evolving relationship with China and the U.S.?
Gullnaz Baig: Charlie, one of the lead authors of our report, put it best: think about complementing China rather than competing with it. For example, in green technology, China has significant overcapacity, particularly in solar panels. Instead of building solar panel plants in Vietnam or the Philippines, we could use China’s excess supply. For instance, we could purchase solar panels from China to install in factories, solar farms, or data centres across Southeast Asia. This approach not only utilizes China’s overcapacity but also helps us diversify our energy supply and strengthen infrastructure.
We can also tap into Chinese capital for infrastructure projects. By presenting opportunities for investment and leveraging their existing resources, we can create win-win situations. As China faces increasing trade restrictions from the EU and the U.S., Southeast Asia can position itself as an open market to benefit from these dynamics.
This strategy also helps us address challenges like rising energy prices and supply instability, particularly as energy grids face increasing pressure. By thinking creatively and taking a complementary approach, rather than viewing the relationship adversarially, Southeast Asia can navigate these challenges effectively. This is a key recommendation in our report.
Bernard Leong: So the message I think you’re trying to convey is to move with the wave. It’s the same even with the U.S. If I want to reverse the situation, they are leading in AI foundational models. We’re navigating between two countries with their foundational models, trying to determine what works best for us and how to adapt their technology to our needs.
Now, let me switch to a quick-fire round. First question: What’s the one question you wish more people would ask you about Southeast Asia?
Gullnaz Baig: I’d love for people to ask me, “Who are Southeast Asians?” I’m a historian by training, so this question resonates with me.
Bernard Leong: Okay, let me ask you then.
Gullnaz Baig: You know, everywhere I go, people assume I’m Indian, and when I say I’m Singaporean, they get confused. I’m sure you experience this too—people ask if you’re Chinese, and when you say you’re Singaporean but ethnically Chinese, they’re baffled because they can’t fit you into a box.
If people understood who Southeast Asians are, they’d appreciate the porousness and diversity of this region. Southeast Asia has always been open and exposed to the world, with China as a constant neighbor to the north and the West influencing us from all around. That has always been our historical trajectory.
Most of our countries, except for one, have some sort of connection to the sea or the broader global community. In Singapore, for example, many people can trace their ancestry to different regions—China, Boyanese communities, Aceh, or even the Middle East. Middle Eastern traders settled here and influenced the region’s culture.
If people asked, “Who are Southeast Asians?” they’d realize we are a confusing mix, but that’s our strength. We’ve always been cosmopolitan, and we shouldn’t be scared of that. At both the political and business levels, this openness has been a huge advantage for us. It’s something that will help us succeed even during times of global turbulence. Sure, everyone will suffer if international trade contracts, but by leaning into our unique strengths, we can suffer less and maintain confidence.
Bernard Leong: That point about porousness and history is fascinating. Many people don’t realize the deep cultural influences Southeast Asia has absorbed over centuries. For instance, Indian empires left their mark on the region, from Angkor Wat to Java. I recently listened to a podcast called Empire that explored how Indian culture expanded into Southeast Asia. It’s a testament to how the region has always been at the crossroads of major nations—India, China, and now the U.S.
Quick question: What’s one thing that has changed your mind in the past 12 months? Has anything made you revisit how you think about what you’re doing?
Gullnaz Baig: Yes, actually. My husband and I are polar opposites when it comes to how we consume information. For years, he’s been a fan of podcasts like Joe Rogan and Lex Friedman, tuning in and taking what resonates while discarding the rest. I, on the other hand, avoided them because I associated them with certain biases.
But as the U.S. elections came around again, I noticed that mainstream media got it wrong—again. Because of conversations with my husband, I started diversifying my sources of information. I listened to podcasts like Lex Friedmann & Joe Rogan’s interview with Trump, and I realized just how different people’s realities can be.
As someone steeped in policy, I’ve come to see how vital it is to break away from preconceived notions about the “common man.” Reflecting on this period, I now believe it’s essential to diversify information sources. It was nerve-wracking at times. I was on panels discussing the U.S. elections from an outsider’s perspective, and it was uncomfortable to express views that didn’t align with the predominant narrative, especially in expat or left-leaning circles. For instance, I didn’t think Kamala Harris’s chances were as strong as others believed, and listening to alternative viewpoints confirmed how varied perceptions can be.
This has made me question how to construct a sense of reality when I can’t fully trust media or traditional information sources. I don’t believe in a single “truth,” but I’m now exploring how to piece together different perspectives to understand the world better.
Bernard Leong: Marshall McLuhan wrote an excellent book on that topic.
Gullnaz Baig: Yes, and I’ve been thinking a lot about whether there’s even such a thing as “reality.” I’m still grappling with that question.
Bernard Leong: For me, I listen to both sides and then decide which perspective aligns better with the evidence.
Gullnaz Baig: But is that enough? Are there only two sides?
Bernard Leong: No, I don’t think there are just two sides. There are multiple perspectives, but people often miss the nuances. They crave black-and-white answers, something tangible to hold on to. The challenge is in embracing the complexities and nuances of different perspectives.
Gullnaz Baig: Exactly, and it’s those nuances that make understanding the world so challenging—and so fascinating.
Bernard Leong: So here’s my traditional closing question. What does “great” look like for you, especially for the Southeast Asian region?
Gullnaz Baig: I was dreading this question! I keep wondering, are we already in a good place, or should we expect even greater things? For me personally, we’re in a good space, but “great” would be when more people in the region enjoy wealth, have access to quality education and healthcare, and no child goes to bed hungry. That’s what great looks like to me.
In Southeast Asia, I genuinely believe we can achieve this if we get our act together. I’m idealistic in that sense—I think it’s possible. I often talk to the younger generation, and they seem to have a more doom-and-gloom perspective, especially about climate change. But I’m inherently optimistic about humanity. We have the technology and resources to make things sustainable and better. As long as we focus on ensuring basic needs are met, we can move forward.
Bernard Leong: I 100% agree with you. Back in the 1980s, everyone was worried about the ozone crisis, but technology solved that problem. I think technology has a higher chance of solving climate change than activism alone.
Gullnaz Baig: I agree, but while we wait for technology to catch up, we need to make sure we don’t worsen the situation to the point where it becomes irreversible.
Bernard Leong: Definitely agree with you on that. Many thanks, Gullnaz, for coming to the show. Just a couple more questions before we wrap up. Any recommendations that have inspired you recently?
Gullnaz Baig: Let me give you a fun one! I was going to go with something serious, but I’ll stick with this. I recently watched Inside Out 2 with my kids, and I loved it. The introduction of emotions like anxiety and shyness offers a great reflection, even for adults. It’s a good reminder to sit with difficult emotions, process them, and recognize that there’s a time and place for every feeling. As adults, especially those of us who are high achievers, we tend to push uncomfortable emotions aside and just power through. But those emotions come back over and over again if we don’t process them.
Bernard Leong: That’s a great recommendation. I’d add The Wild Robot to your list as well.
Gullnaz Baig: Oh, I’ve seen that!
Bernard Leong: It’s a wonderful story that teaches about living in different communities and dealing with challenges. It’s a great allegory for immigration.
Gullnaz Baig: Yes, and it also explores the role of technology. On a more serious note, I’m currently reading Power and Struggle. It’s taken me a while to get through it, but it’s been worth it. The book examines historical moments of technological development and shows that the trajectory and outcome of technology aren’t predetermined.
The world seems divided between those who believe everything tech does is good and those who are sceptical of tech and fear doom. What this book shows me is that intentionality is crucial. Technology must be introduced with purpose and within a framework. It’s a timely read, especially with how quickly AI is developing. It’s important to think about how we use these advancements meaningfully.
Bernard Leong: How can my audience find you?
Gullnaz Baig: I’m on LinkedIn. If you spell my name correctly, I’m the only one with that name, so I’m easy to find. You can also check out the Angsana Council’s LinkedIn page where we’ve published the report. It’s truly a labour of love, and every time someone reaches out to say they found it meaningful, it makes all the blood, sweat, and tears we poured into it worth it. That’s all we hope for—that the report is useful and impactful for others.
Bernard Leong: Well, as we’re approaching the end of the year, I encourage everyone to download the report. Take a few days to read through it; it’s packed with valuable insights. I’ll make sure to share all the relevant links.
Once again, Gullnaz, thank you so much for coming on the show. I’d love to have you back to talk more about the history of the region—there’s so much to explore.
Gullnaz Baig: Thank you, Bernard. I’d love that. Happy holidays and thank you for having me.
Bernard Leong: Happy holidays to you too! Let’s chat again soon.
Podcast Information: Bernard Leong (@bernardleong, Linkedin) hosts and produces the show. Proper credits for the intro and end music: "Energetic Sports Drive" and the episode is mixed & edited in both video and audio format by G. Thomas Craig (@gthomascraig, LinkedIn). Here are the links to watch or listen to our podcast.
